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Watch and listen to this 19-minute video, the seventh part of a 10-part dialogue with Ervin Laszlo and Marc Gafni in Tuscany on the topic of Evolutionary Love–envisioning a new Renaissance that will take us to the future. Watch previous posts from this series;

Enjoy the seventh part of the dialogue here:


Dr. Ervin László: So, I’m glad you brought in this whole topic of evolutionary love, because in this context, love is at the heart of the cosmos. Love is something that made the cosmos what it is. It’s the organizing principle, without which what would be the … space time world would be series of mechanically interacting parts. It would be a heap, an aggregate. It wouldn’t be whole, it wouldn’t be something that emerges, but emerges is the oneness, is the unity. And the way it emerges is through love. Emergence is evolution, and to become part of evolution, you have to feel the love, sense the love, recover the love, in the sense of Plato, as recover what the soul already knows, is through instinct and intuition, but through the conscious recognition of the truth, of the validity of this instinct and intuition, which I think is there in all species.

It was there in the human species, up to 20, 30 thousand years ago or so, obviously this was expressed in an instinctive, intuitive way. And then you tell the story so beautifully, how the self then emerges, and it became submerged in the other elements of it, of become of what it is a part of, but it is basically there, without it life would not be possible. And if life is to continue on this planet, it needs human species, because we are capable of destroying life. I think life would continue if we just quietly disappeared, but there’s not much chance of that. I think we are become an essential element of the unfolding of life, and life itself is an expression of this trend, of this drive, of this will, if you like, in the cosmos, towards wholeness, toward increasing integration, with the consciousness arising and supporting and promoting, guiding this entire process.

The divine consciousness, if you like, in these terms, comes to expression in our consciousness, because our conscience is part of that divine consciousness, that’s a hologram. We’re all intrinsic parts of it. We can interact with the whole, we can interact with any other part of the whole. If we can recognize this, then we can become conscious agents of evolution, by becoming consciously loving agents, consciously loving parts of it.

Dr. Marc Gafni: What that really means is, Ervin, that when Ervin is … it’s 57 years ago, and he meets Carita, and they’re together for three, four days, they meet, and they’re in different countries, and then they write love letters to each other for a year, that is the evolutionary impulse of love that brought quarks together, and molecules together, it’s that same impulse that’s now bringing Ervin and Carita together. It’s the same love, it’s one love. There’s no distinction, is that fair?

Dr. Ervin László: There’s only one love.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Only one love.

Dr. Ervin László: It’s only evolutionary love. There are aberrations of it, but evolutionary love is one.

Dr. Marc Gafni: It’s one love, and that’s really important, so that means that when we talk about love, and we have all the love songs, that are always about one person meeting another person, that love is not merely human, that’s the human expression of the evolutionary love that moves the cosmos, which means as follows, and it’s a very, very stunning implication. It means Ervin is connected to Carita because of particular circumstance, time, attraction, a particular whole is created, but actually that’s just one expression of love. And what we’ve done in the modern world, is we’ve made our love lists very short, meaning I’m not suggesting we should be romantically involved with everyone, like Carita wouldn’t be happy about that. Oh my god, Gafni came by, what happened? That’s not what I mean. I mean that actually our love list search is short and meaning, that we actually can fall in love, profoundly, with many people, not romantically, sexually, that’s one expression of love, but I can fall in love with a person’s essence, because love means I realize we’re connected.

I perceive our essence. The same way that Ervin is obligated, is in devotion to Carita, I can now expand my love list and realize that we don’t want to exile love to only romantic, sexual love. That makes love small. We need to actually realize that our love lists are much longer, that actually the love that binds me to my partner, is actually an expression of a deeper love, and that actually I’m potentially in love with all of reality, not just as a metaphor, but actually that’s the true nature of reality. Does that …

Dr. Ervin László: Yes. Let me get back to the true nature of reality, but something else occurred to me just now, before we get to the true nature of reality, there is a concept. It’s actually a tool used in mathematics and systems, it was just called attractor, the attractors. What does an attractor do? An attractor is a pattern which guides or governs the evolution of a system, of a number of … composed of a number of different parts, into a particular shape. It was that pattern tends to come about always, it attracts the system in that direction. Now, what is love? It’s attraction, so maybe it’s a metaphor, but it’s a very good fitting metaphor.

Dr. Marc Gafni: It’s beautiful.

Dr. Ervin László: Love is an attractor in the world, in the cosmos, because it drives us, it moves us, impels us in a direction, which is with us, not over or under, above or below us, but with us. Co-evolving.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Co-evolving.

Dr. Ervin László: And I think that’s evolution meaning for me, of love, of feeling that, sensing that, that I can become a larger whole, I can become more me, I can become more of a unique self, by joining with somebody else, also be joined with a community, and ultimately feeling part of humanity, and feeling part of humanity as a part of the Earth.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Which means, and let me put it kind of a … I’m gonna put it now, and we’re going into the last part of our dialog, in kind of very, very stark terms, so there’s no running away from it. So, if I come to Tuscany, as a separate self, and I’m saying, okay, what can I get from Ervin in my hour and a half dialog, then Ervin feels like, I don’t want to talk to this guy. He feels like a repulsion, but if I come and I say, oh my god, I’m gonna read Self Actualizing Cosmos on the plane again, and I’m gonna read The Akasha Record Book, and I’m gonna read as much as I can, and I’m gonna let myself open in delight, I get to fall in love with Ervin.

Now, he’s not my romantic, sexual type, I gotta tell you, not where I lean, but of course that’s not what I’m talking about. I get to fall in love with the universe, expressing itself in this unique, stunning genius, called Ervin László, and I get to be devoted to it. I have devotion, and then he actually feels my devotion, and then what happens is, he then opens up and says, then opens his heart, well who’s this person, because jealousy disappears when you genuinely fall in love, when there’s genuine devotion, and then we get to fall in love with the two people, like Bruno and Rico, who are behind the camera in this moment, who have their own individual lives, and their individual dreams, and their individual loves, and their unique expressions of the cosmos.

Then we have Simona, a professor at the university, sitting off camera to our right, we get to fall in love with her, and then with Laurie, my partner who’s here. And we actually get to fall in love with each other, which means I fall in love with, it’s not merely an emotion. Love, at its core, is not really an emotion, where cupid brings back her bow, or his bow, you get hit with an arrow, it happens to you, it’s against your will, you fall in love, and you fall out of love, and then the arrow hits your secretary and it’s all very confusing. Falling in love is actually the universe awakening in you, where you actually experience your connectivity. You perceive another person’s unique gorgeousness, and then you’re in devotion to that, and that devotion reveals the natural connectivity between you. That’s what love does, love reveals that we’re not separate.

I’m gonna write love letters, and then I’m gonna be on tour, as a concert pianist prodigy at age 35, and I’m gonna get married, doing a quick two week break, on my tour, and make it all happen, because I’m being moved by evolutionary love, to create this connection, something like that.

Dr. Ervin László: There is a personal level, and then there is also, even almost a deeper level, which is collective in some sense, but it’s a fantastic level. I’m referring now to me experience as a professional musician. Until I was in my early 30s, I gained my livelihood playing concerts.

Dr. Marc Gafni: You were actually a child prodigy-

Dr. Ervin László: Yes, I started in … yes, my first concert was a symphony orchestra in Budapest, was when I was age nine, and then I did a lot of touring. I did my New York debut, and was greeted by Time Life magazine and so on. It was a lot of accolades, but the people always asked me, what it is that drives you towards it? And the sense that many people, or the answer many people give what it is that attracts you to this profession, is the sense of being applauded. This was completely missing in me. I don’t know why, because parents, because I started very early, and to me it’s a natural thing. In fact, you start being in competition with yourself, if they don’t applaud as much now as they did last week, then it’s a problem, so practically need it. But that’s not what, what, what got me to endow, so to speak. What was that, is this sense of communication, a sense of being one with the public.

It’s a fantastic of feeling. Of course, you can have it in a larger where you’re playing, like a string quartet for example, and then you’re all together. You play with an orchestra, it gets magnified. You play with an orchestra, with the public, with a thousand people there or more, and then you feel that it’s all … you’re all breathing the same way. You’re breathing it in. You’re becoming part of it all. And that … can you see? I love the rest of the public, but I’m one with them, I’m one with the conductor, forgets the jealousy, why doesn’t he take this tempo, why doesn’t he take my tempo, et cetera, but it works. It doesn’t always work, but when it works, you have a sense, you have a sensation, of becoming something larger than you are, something deeper. You remove yourself from the here and now, and you move someplace else, into another space, you know? And that is a sensation. I never thought of in these terms, but I’m willing to admit that it is also a sensation of love.

Marc Gafni: Beautiful, and I love, I’m actually … so you can get in love with an idea, because the idea connects you. When I say I’m in love with the idea, what do I mean? I mean that idea connects me, and makes me feel part of larger reality, the way you just expressed it. So let me just, I just want to say it again. So you’re doing a symphony, and this sense of being located with everyone else, the conductor, the people, the audience, the public, the different instruments, and that sense of location creates a sense of expansion and exhilaration, and the entire symphony is animated by love, and that love is of a different, it’s of the same essence, but a different quality than falling in love with Carita, but it’s the same essence underneath.

And again, you didn’t marry the thousand people. We’ve exiled love to marriage, and I’m gonna try and offer a kind of shocking statement with your permission, and then you’ll push back or … which is never marry for love. When I mean never marry for love, meaning if you look to your marriage, or to your relationship to give you all of love, all of your core essential need for love, then your marriage or your relationship will collapse, because you’re asking it to fulfill all of your essential core requirement for love. And your requirement for love is much more essential in your relationship.

It’s about your relationship to all of reality, and when you exile love into a particular relational construct, then you actually lose something, because actually you’re in love with Tuscany, in your love with thought, and your love with ever even being in the planet, and you’re in love with the exiled dimensions of yourself, so love is actually what you called the attractive force that awakens you to your location, to you embedded-ness, and to your indivisible connection with everything, and so you should love the person you marry, but don’t marry for love. That can’t be the only place you find love. Does that begin to resonate?

Dr. Ervin László: I would say yes. Don’t marry for love, marry for going home, for coming home.

Dr. Marc Gafni: For coming home.

Dr. Ervin László: Because if you have that person that you feel at home with, you know, if you marry that person, then you start feeling at home every day. And then you start feeling at home in the environment, and then you start feeling at home perhaps in the universe.

Dr. Marc Gafni: See, that’s beautiful, so that’s a … when you actually feel at home, then the love, if the love that you have with your partner is actually true love, it’s outrageous love, it’s evolutionary love, it’s not ordinary love, then that love doesn’t limit you. It’s not the only place you feel at home, but you said it so beautiful, I just want to repeat it, then you begin to feel at home, in larger and larger circles, in larger and larger contexts, instead of it shutting you off from the rest of the world, it actually opens you to feel at home, in larger and larger context, and perhaps that’s a great litmus test for love that’s actually not ordinary, but evolutionary love.

Dr. Ervin László: You find yourself at home. That’s a beautiful, beautiful sensation I think, and that’s a shared feeling. You share your home. You share your homecoming with one person, but then you share whoever comes, is whoever you meet. You stop feeling jealous or competitive, I mean that’s … I never liked the competitive sense. For example, you make examples, I had suffered fault in my younger days. I used to love fast cars.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Fast cars.

Dr. Ervin László: I lived in Switzerland, I had a Porsche, and was doing competition driving.

Dr. Marc Gafni: You did competition driving?

Dr. Ervin László: Well, I did in my travels, but besides, I never liked to compete against others. I competed against the clock, because the clock is me, is myself, is how well you can move in a given road, making the optimum use of your speed, of your drive, of your qualities of your vehicle, because that way I could enter into an experience, which is an interior experience. Driving that car felt like, at the time, this seems funny to say, for a philosopher to say these things, but it was a feeling. It’s a feeling of the car having to become one with the road, and the road was part of a mountain.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Beautiful, Eros.

Dr. Ervin László: And I was in it, and that’s what I enjoyed about it. I started enjoying it a little bit less when I tried to do that in the US highways. I got tickets.

Dr. Marc Gafni: It lowered the-

Dr. Ervin László: Now I still like whatever, if I have a good instrument of some kind. It’s like having a wonderful piano. It can be a car, it can be a well done computer system as well. You cast that feeling that you are not separately operating something, but you’re becoming one with it, okay? Now just a smaller mechanical example of the larger sense that we have, is people, is a person, is a person that you love, and these are persons that you love, because then you are not separate individuals whom are making use of, you are becoming part of their existence, and you are together existing, and together evolving in the world.

Dr. Marc Gafni: So let’s just kind of introduce a new, a very, very important new idea here, that’s emergent from this conversation, which is something like as follows, the old split between the relative and the absolute, that’s used in classical spiritual sources, or between the personal and the impersonal, is actually from a deeper, non-dual perspective, from the perspective of oneness, it’s a false split, that actually, when I love my partner, right, that’s a personal expression of love, but actually that’s an expression of the true nature of reality, because actually all of reality is actually personal quality. Personal’s not really personality, it’s not only individuated, personal is a quality of essence. I feel essence alive personally in this person, and that personal essence actually is available every place.

The hill is personal. The car is personal. The idea is personal. Personal is the quality of essence that animates actually everything, because as Nagarjuna reminded us, there’s no emptiness without form. And all form, always, is unique, all form, there’s no form that’s not unique. There’s the atomic signature, every grain of sand is unique, so actually personal quality animates everything, and to actually love is to detect, to feel the personal quality of the music of that moment, that person, that place, that reality. When I open myself to that, I fall in love.

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