Posted by .

On A Return to Eros

>>> Buy the Book on amazon Here <<<

In this brilliant dialogue, Dr. Warren Farrell, Dr. Marc Gafni, and Dr. Kristina Kincaid discuss the newly published Think Tank Book A Return to Eros, the #MeToo Crisis, Shame, Male and Female Role Models, and the much needed new sexual narrative that the book offers.

Transcript of the Dialogue

Marc Gafni:                    

I am delighted to be here with Warren Farrell and Kristina Kincaid. Kristina Kincaid is my co-author and partner in this wonderful book that’s actually behind Warren there, A Return to Eros. Maybe Kristina will show us a copy of the book as well, awesome. And Warren is a dear friend of ours and a board member of the Center front of wisdom, which is our think tank that’s committed to evolving the source code of culture itself. Both in terms of scientific issues, economic issues, business and relationships, Eros are the social structure and fabric of our society. And we’re in the middle of this incredibly poignant, potent powerful and painful moments, which we’ve been talking about at the think tank for 70 years.

Which is the crisis of sexuality in the culture and the crisis of Eros. Right? The crisis of identity, right? The fact that there’s not a genuine narrative of identity, of purpose. There’s not a genuine narrative of sexuality, we don’t have a real universe story and finally, there’s no narrative of power. So four narratives that are missing, a narrative of power, of identity, of sexuality and a universe narrative. A narrative of meaningful universe itself. And in that absence, right? Every manner of the dogs of hells are loosed, right? Because of course sexuality is the single most powerful force that we meet in our everyday manifest world and yet we live in this world, where postmodernity has deconstructed all distinctions around sexuality.

And yet we sense the centers gravitas. It’s not quite like eating, right? And yet we have no distinctions around this gravitas, we have no rules of consent, we have no narrative of sexuality. And so Kristina and I, had that really delight when the think tank sponsored this project deeply. Right? To actually engage for a number of years and in authoring this book of A Return to Eros. Like it is the radical experience of being fully alive … That’s the full title of A Return to Eros – The radical experience of being fully alive – Sex, love, eroticism in every dimension of life. And in some sense we could say that a return to our Eros is the best response we think available today, to this me too moment.

I and so perhaps Kristina perhaps will begin with you, any thoughts you have on just A Return to Eros in response to me too. A Return to Eros, why it matters to you, right. Your just initial thoughts then we’ll go to Warren, right? We’re just to talk about the book and why the book matters. And why it actually has the capacity and to really change the source code, to really change the conversation. So Kristina.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Yeah.

Marc Gafni:                     

What’s up?

Kristina Kincaid:             

Well, what I just wanted to start with, first of all hello?[inaudible 00:03:11] Warren, very nice to see you.

Warren Farrell:               

Very nice to see you Kristina.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Yeah. So what I want to say is, we’ve been well and we’ve been born into a sex negative culture. And we’re bombarded all the time by its pejorative and conflicting messages. And the sex negative narrative uses shame and guilt to disconnect us from our pleasure, so how could it not result in anything but sort of violence from there? Right? So sexuality eventually just implodes and we’re left with me too crisis. So I wanted to just start with the basic idea of the narrative that we’re sort of left with in your culture right now. Marc?

Marc Gafni:                     

Yeah, no that’s a great start, maybe [inaudible 00:03:59] and turn to Warren. That’s fantastic, okay. Right? I mean, sex and shame are virtually inseparable. I mean the amount of shame around sexuality is so intense, right? And shame is the root of all evil, right? Shame is the experience that my social self is really a mirage, it’s a façade, if you only knew who I really was, right? You wouldn’t want to have dinner with me, or meet have anything to do with with any of my family. [inaudible 00:04:25] this internalized sense of shame about our sexuality, because we don’t have a sexual narrative. I mean what do we have, and we wrote about it in the book?

Kristina Kincaid:              

Right.

Marc Gafni:                     

Either we have sex negative, sex is bad because it’s dangerous. Right? But we don’t quite believe that anymore, the church kind of sold that one. We got the Kinsey sex neutral, right? But we don’t quite think it’s like having lunch. We got sex positive, which looks too bland and it doesn’t capture the gravitas in sexuality. And then we have this kind of move towards sex sacred because it creates babies, but when was the last time your average person in the United States had, had sex to create babies? Like most of our sex isn’t around creating babies. So a lot of that sexual narrative, which is why this urgent … Right? Process happening in us, doesn’t fit with anything that we understand, so we experience shame. And just in one second we’ll turn to Warren, so we try to articulate in the book is the new sexual narrative.

Which we call sex erotic. And sex erotic understands that we live in a Cozumel erotic universe. That it’s sex all the way up and all the way down, that in the corks that are allured to each other, right? Right to the cellular attraction, right? To the … Right all the way up we have this electromagnetic attraction, gravity and social forces of allurement, right? We have economic, right? The entire structure of reality is a structure of allurement. Right? Of attraction and actually just at the very at subatomic level, matter rebuilding block of reality is created by allurement. And that when a dance of allurement goes up it becomes conscious, becomes alive in us, we call it sexuality.

But actually Eros exists for a billion years before sexuality, and it’s the reality. We’ve got a self organizing universe as evolutionary science says, that’s moving towards more and more complexity, and more and more consciousness, and more and more caring, and more and more creativity, right? And more and more love. So evolution is not … Right, evolution is a trajectory, it’s going somewhere. Not because there’s a puppeteer god, there’s an inherent creativity in Cosmos that moves towards … Right? More. Right, more creativity, more uniqueness, right? More Eros and sexual … That movement is always movement, and here’s the core I think of the whole thing. It’s a movement towards larger holes, right? Eros is the experience of being radically alive, moving towards more contact. It creates greater holes.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes

Marc Gafni:                     

That’s Eros.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

Sex is Eros disclosed and that experience of creating a greater whole is pleasurable. And fracturing, breaking apart is painful. Once I get that, “Oh sex is sex erotic.” That thing that’s emerging in me isn’t weird or messed up, or pathological. It could have pathological expression, it needs appropriate boundaries. But the core forcing me is beautiful, right? It’s a movement of Eros of life itself, awakening as Warren, seeking greater contact and more wholeness and it creates pleasure as its natural expression. So that’s the new narrative that begins the book sex erotic and with sex erotic, we turn to you Warren. Right, I mean-       

Thank you. What a beautiful foreword.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Beautiful.

Marc Gafni:

Just want to thank you, right? What a gorgeous foreword you’re writing, and really just what a privilege and a pleasure.

Warren Farrell:    

Thank you.

Now in a way A Return to Eros is really like the perfectly trying book, except that usually you have a you have a need and then you invent the solution. You’ve really invented the solution before the need spoke up in its most potent form, and so is really crucial I think that and a very good starting place that women have spoken up and said, “Here’s what pains me, here’s what I’ve missed. Here’s what I’ve been afraid to speak about, here’s has how it’s impacted by self concept, here’s what you men did not really know affects some of us.” But that said, it’s an extremely … If the conversation stops anywhere near here, where it stays only with women’s speaking up, it will undermine women it will infantilize women. Because part of what the feminist movement is saying, “Is we women are strong.” And now with their say … Now what is coming out is that “We women are really fragile.”

And so men are looking at this and saying, “wait a minute, strong or fragile?” You can speak up for yourself? Yes, I thought you said you could and now you’re saying you haven’t been speaking up for yourself all these years? And weren’t you speaking for the last 50 years? I thought you were because it seems to me we were listening mostly to you in the last 50 years, and now you’re saying you haven’t even spoken up in those 50 years that you’ve been saying … That you’ve been speaking up from our perspective? And so what is missing is that sex, the sexual relationship between men and women it’s a tango. It’s a tango and if any one part of that tango changes, the entire thing needs to change. And how does it happen? Does it happen with me too, being women speaking up? No, a tango changes by not one side speaking up but both sides communicating with each other.

And so what men are doing, is they’re looking all around them and they’re seeing in their companies that there is HR departments. But the HR departments are not really HR, they’re really HER. They’re speaking up about the women’s perspective on the world, in the workplace. Is that good? Absolutely. Is it good in isolation? It is a disaster in isolation, because you cannot have one sex speak up about how both sexes get along in any situation. Whether it’s in the sexual situation, whether it’s in the dance, whether it’s in the work situation, whether it’s in the parenting situation. And men repressed their feelings in the parenting situation for years and have not begun to get to the me too segment, but we what we are yearning for is a dialogue around sexuality. And what we’ve gotten a little taste of, is a monologue. And now it’s time for A Return to Eros and other people who have courage to be condemned to be able to speak up and say, “It is more than just one side having challenges, If you would-“                 

And so what’s required?

The next thing that is required is that instead of saying sex is dirty, men initiate the dirt. And then blaming men when they do it wrong, if they do it too much they’re oppressors. If they don’t do it enough, they’re ignored. And so the 15 year old boy … Let’s take his perspective. 15 year old boy, is in class with a 15 year old girl. The 15 year old girl is about a year and a half more mature than the 15 year old boy, yet the 15 year old boy the less mature a sex is being asked to take sexually initiatives by expectation. And the girl is being allowed to have sexual initiatives by choice, by option. So she has the option, he has the expectation. That he is the less mature sex and he’s the sex it wants it more than she does. And so he’s looking to the women in his class, the cheerleaders let’s say. Who are the most attractive and unless he’s a football ball player, he feels unworthy of her.

But he’s expected to take the initiative and knows more about sex, more about girls. And but the classroom is teaching that sex is dirty, sex is dangerous and by the way you’ve got … You’re supposed to take the initiative with the girls and want them much less that you do. And he’s less mature sex. So is he going to mess it up? 100% chance sure that he’s going to mess it up. And then the girls sit back and blame him for messing it up, but what would a mature sex do? A mature sex would share responsibility. What would a mature school do? A mature school would say, “In order for girls to be equal and women to be equal, they must risk sexual rejection with boys as often as boys risk sexual rejection for men.” And then we’re talking about girls of over reaching sometimes, girls not reaching strong enough at other times and therefore being ignored and disappearing.

And we’re talking about the sexes dialoguing with each other, about the challenges that both experience. So when I spoke around the country for 25 years, I didn’t speak around the country. I’d conducted men’s beauty contests and role reversal dates. And the men’s beauty contest started with the theme of, “Every woman is in a beauty contest, every day of her life. Whether she’s attractive or unattractive, young or old. She’s either invisible or over paid attention to in that beauty contest of everyday life.” And when the men went through that beauty contest of everyday life, the men said, “I had no idea that even though I was good looking and I almost won this beauty contest, I felt only paid attention to for but as a body. And that really made me feel objectified and devalued, even though I came in third in this beauty contest.”

And the guys that got left out felt totally worthless and useless, even though they felt that they had a life where they had tapestry of being valued. And when I asked the women to take the risks of sexual rejection, this was usually the college or university. Most of the women were students, many of them were extremely bright students at good universities, many of them were professors or administrators. And the professors and administrators who were female, often feminist, felt that they knew … They were very much … Had a lot of self-confidence, were in charge of themselves. But when they got addicted to a man who had won the beauty contest and I encouraged them to go after their first choice men. And they followed up and went after their first choice men, they found themselves competing for that man in a way that was unbecoming to them.

They said, “I acted after the processing period.” They said, “I found myself acting like a jerk. I said I’d take him to a restaurant I couldn’t afford, I said I had a type of car, I had that type of prospect. I’d lied about what I did, make him believe I earn more money. All of this came out of my mouth 10 minutes of insecurity, about trying to compete with another woman to make sure I didn’t get rejected. And here I am the vice president of this university and no one would believe I had these insecurities.” And so what men and women need to do is walk a mile in each other’s moccasins of insecurities. One of the things that I would ask every single organizer every place I went, I asked them, “Tell me if there’s a single person here who has gone through this experience all night long and is ever accused of sexual harassment or a date rape? Or ever accuses someone else sexual harassment or a date rape?”

And to this day some 35 years later, I have never gotten a single call saying that anyone did. That’s where we need to move to.

Marc Gafni:                     

Yeah, I know. Gorgeous, gorgeous. And that’s gorgeous overview and really beautiful, and the work you’ve done in this areas is ground breaking and gorgeous and incredible. So KK, we’re going to turn to you in a moment, I seem to have fallen into the moderator rather sold your permission. We just kind of… And I’m going to turn to you to talk about specifically the feminine claiming desire. You know what? What’s happening now is, I think we all truly stand for the wonder and goodness of me too, which is how you began Warren. Which is the notion that my body is not a territory that you get to invade, is a given to all of us. And clearly, right? There has been, right? Inappropriateness, there’s been harassment, there’s been abuse and we all agreed that, that’s not okay.

That’s a given and in a nut sense, me too is not a new conversation. It’s the progression of the sexual harassment conversation, that’s now erupting in a particular way and let’s hold all of the good in the conversation at the beginning as you said Warren. Right, however, and here’s the big however; whenever you have a conversation in which … Right? Essentially I was saying to our colleague Kathy earlier, when you categorize all Jews right as one category right? And then you disparage them we call it anti-Semitism. When you categorize the entire African-American community, right? As one community you disparage them, we call it racism. But somehow when you characterize all men as a community, right? We call it feminism and disparage them. But that’s a problem, right? That’s actually a shadow of them and it’s [inaudible 00:17:19] feminism.

And it can’t be in this conversation that basically men are bad and are basically identified with their … The kind of a shadow of a particular expression of the masculine, which is a predatory, right? Nature, which expresses itself an inappropriate boundary breaking, in order to cover over whatever it seeks to cover over. And women are essentially virtuous, right? Would never tell an untruth, right? And was at the inclination of virtue, and essentially the way the world was distributed or the way socioeconomic it emerged as, you got the bad man represented by patriarchy, and you’ve got the virtuous damsel needs to be saved from the bad man. That’s just[crosstalk 00:18:01] not true but it. Ideally it infantalizes the feminine and it misunderstands basically human nature, which is that men and women, are both beautiful and gorgeous, and they both have-

Warren Farrell:               

Beautiful and we’re also complex. We are sometimes beautiful and sometimes we are not-

Marc Gafni:                     

And women are both beautiful and so there’s masculine shadow, and there’s feminine shadow and those are both real, right? And we need to actually really stand for Integrity but the deeper issue is, shame. Let’s go back to shame, as long as you have a narrative sexuality, which says, “Right, I don’t understand what sexuality is, sexuality is this force moving in me.” Right? Which is just weird and it’s uncontrolled, and It’s pathological. Right, then I’m going to be shamed. And shame is the root of all evil, by I’m shamed, it means I’m not okay, It means I’m not fixable, it means I came from the factory, and I was broken. And the second I’m shamed, I have a self experience right? Of being inadequate and somehow bad, well I’m going to act from that place. That’s what’s going to actually move me, but if I actually understand that sexuality is disclosure of Eros and Eros by its nature moves closer. It initiates.

It moves to take parts and make them into larger holes, it seeks greater intimacies and that actually men and women have an enormous, profound, gorgeous, right? A neat desire to create greater intimacies. Evolution is the evolution of intimacy, and so actually would any of us want to go to a work place when there’s not the play of Eros? Anyone is going to live a world which we had de erotisized? What will happen is people won’t go to work, people won’t have babies, will stake for creativity, and will create actually a mass schizophrenic depression right? And I’m not exaggerating, right?

The result in mental breakdown, the result in degradation will be horrific. So we actually need to actually claim the delight of arousal, but take responsibility for our arousal and actually experience the beauty of desire. And so KK, maybe we could talk a little bit about … As a woman, what does it mean as a woman to take responsibility for your arousal and to claim your desire? I know you did a lot of work I that teaching, so maybe you’d speak to that a little bit.

Warren Farrell:               

Great question.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Great. I just want to speak to actually what you were speaking to more earlier too, in terms of the current view of sexuality that we have is by nature that is shameful, and harmful, and should be repressed. So from that point for both men and women for both sexes, it makes it challenging to have full sexual agency, right? It makes it very challenging to claim who’s running your sexuality. Who’s running your fuck if we want to use the vernacular. When we begin to see our sex as a natural healthy part of our lives, then we actually can begin to take radical responsibility for our own sexual arousal, for our own emotions, for our own pleasure, for our own need to fully claim our sexual autonomy, our sexual identity. And part of … Marc, the dharma that you brought in … This is been years and years ago, about taking responsibility for your own arousal, means taking responsibility for your sexual agency, means taking back the responsibility for dominion over your sexuality.

Being a free agent of your body, of your sexual energy, of your choices, of your pleasure and your power. And I think it’s obviously true for women, but it’s also true for men. I think that what A Return to Eros speaks about, is that Eros is the founding principle of a lightness and the magic that’s inherent in all of reality. And when we go back, when we can go back to that and actually access that in our bodies, that game changes.

Marc Gafni:                     

No fantastic, fantastic. And without that, we are in such not good shape and it’s … Responsible for your arousal means, right? I’m a player. But I’m a player not in this kind of tinsel way, right? I’m powerful and here’s … I’m going to turn back you to Warren because you wrote the book of ‘Myth of male power.’ Let’s just talk about power for a second, because powers play the discourse now, right. So we’ve talk about a sexual narrative, within a narrative of sexuality, which is sex erotic. This understand it we live in a cos mo erotic universe. Let’s talk about a narrative of power, right?

I mean in the pre-modern world, power was with God, human being was obedient. In the modern world God sidelined … Nothing disappeared, but sidelined powers with the human being and we think that’s going to bring us home, but then we run into Hiroshima, then all of modernity’s power realized, we have a story equal to our power. So long as post modernity and basic deconstructs power. Power is bad, power synonymous with abuse. So now we have people who have a natural feeling of being powerless.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

Got an entire post paternity going to be there’s actually deconstructed power, there’s no narrative of power. So the other thing we do in A Return to Eros, is actually talk about a new narrative like identity. Who am I? Reality is having a Warren experience, and the evolutionary impulse, right? Lives and moves in more and uniquely. And Warren’s an irreducibly unique expression of that evolutionary impulse, an evolutionary impulse is not weak, it’s powerful. It’s impulsing in more and uniquely and so Warren’s identity is … Right, reality is having a Warren experience. And Warren has a unique gift to give, right? And unique quality of MC and unique presence, and unique Eros, and a unique taste that no one ever was, is or will be, right? Can give other than Warren.

So he’s got a sense of enormous power there and once you have that sense of power, then that’s Eros. If you don’t have their Eros, the only thing you have is pseudo Eros. And pseudo Eros, has got to always be transgressive in order to break boundaries to get a sense of aliveness. But if you’re not transgressive, you’re subversive. What does subversive mean? He can break the boundaries, right? Of cultured new ideas, he can break boundaries with new insights. Right? He can penetrate, right. With his understanding that he can break boundaries with his own transformation, all of a sudden we’ve got Warren as an evolutionary unique self. But as an agent a unique expression of love, not as Homo Deus or Homo Sapien but it’s Homo Amore.

A Homo Amore, a unique expression of love that is Warren, then his Eros expresses that, and sex is love in the body.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

Right?

Warren Farrell:               

So please, everything you have just said is exactly the opposite of what men have historically learned to be in the name of power. So what men have learned to be in the name of power, is a human doing. But everything you were talking about that is associated with Eros, is being a human being.

Marc Gafni:                     

Beautiful.

Warren Farrell:               

And so men have often learned to climb a ladder that someone else told them they should climb him in order to have power. And it was not a ladder of being an artist because that would not produce enough money and income to support a family, it was not a ladder of being musician and getting in touch with their feelings and their soul with it, it was not a ladder of being a spiritual being predominately, because that wouldn’t produce enough money to support a wife and children. It was a ladder that someone said he would make enough money to support a wife and children, so you learn to get to do all the manipulations to climb to the top of that ladder on a wall you never even chose to be climbing against.

And people looked at you at the top of the ladder and said, “Oh, you really have a lot of power.” And if you’re if you got to the top of the ladder, you had power and you had privilege. And if you happen to be wide at the top of that ladder you have power, provision yet male preference therefore doesn’t count. That you got to the top of the ladder, that may support a few million children in the process. And so what men learn to define as power is feeling obligated to earn money, that often somebody else spent while they died sooner. But that in fact was the man sacrificing himself to become a civilizing force, so that a woman wouldn’t have to focus on earning money that somebody would spent while she died sooner.

She could focus her emotional skills, her body, her time, her energy to nurturing children, to creating a closer connection. And that civilized her, that created more emotional tapestry, that created more sense of her being dire and appreciated and all, because every time a woman cooked a dinner, we saw the dinner she cooked, we thanked her for the dinner she cooked. But when a man went out and did his stuff in a coma and he looked kind of ugly at the end of the day and he was disconnected often of the times from himself, because what it takes to be successful at work, often disconnected him from what it took to be successful in love. The more successful a man became, and the more he learns to listen to … Instead When he listens somebody speak, he was oftentimes having to think about, “What is this person saying that they’re trying to sell me? Will this work in a foreign market? Will this work? This will be the competitor?

So he learned to listen to what not other people were saying, he learned to listen to whether or not what his response would be. But when he took that listening process to home and his children or as wife were speaking out and he was listening to what he could add to what they were saying, they didn’t feel listened to. So he became less valued as a result of doing at home what he had learned to do at work, because nobody had taught him that the qualities it takes to succeed at work are inversely related to the qualities it takes to succeed in love.

Marc Gafni:                     

Right.

Warren Farrell:               

And all of this needs to be reconfigured and that needs to be the discussion, because the lack of that discussion is hurting everybody.

Marc Gafni:                     

Right, I mean it’s so beautiful, right KK? Warren said that without a narrative of identity, we’re actually having an authentic source of power. When I’ve based the externalized my power, right? And I have no control over it and I don’t have a genuine sense of power, so what I’m going to do. with I’m going to seek power in transgressive boundary breaking, of course. That’s the only ways I’m going to seek it, exactly I don’t have an authentic source in my power. And so what we really … I want to kind of maybe touch on one last point, I know we’re really excited to be here and we want just to invite everyone, right? A Return to Eros is the framework that will allow us to move beyond the me too moment. We just invite everyone, just go to Amazon, pick up the book, write us, talk to us, right it is. We’re not big fans of kind of knee jerk humility, we think it’s the best book ever written on Eros, ever.

Right, it actually provides you know a framework and it’s kind of response, we’re getting it’s one of those things that was worth being born to doing to be together and it gives us a framework that can actually take us the next step. And Warren’s point to Kristina, what you’re pointing to, we’re pointing to in the think tank is without a new set of narratives, again an identity, a narrative of identity, a narrative of power that doesn’t … The legitimate power per se, right? A narrative of sexuality, right? A universe story, which is the universe not a fact, it’s a story. It’s not an ordinary story, it’s a love story. It’s a story of Eros, it’s story moving towards more complexity in consciousness, we’re in such big trouble and we’ve got to get beyond this men bad, women good.

And we’re kind of make maybe one last point and invite you both to comment, so we can at least get one more dimensions to give people the most. We can give you all listening in this short conversation, but when we talk about men, right? And we actually talk about men with the kind of classical masculine qualities, the women with classical feminine qualities we forget something; that the transgender movement, right? Which is actually the heart of liberalism, actually asked a good set of questions.

The answers aren’t very good, but the questions are excellent. And the questions that [inaudible 00:30:14] gender movement is, is there something underlying being a boy and girl? Are there some essence to I am? And Warren, we’ve talked about this extensively. KK, we’ve taught about it in so many places. [inaudible 00:30:25] Moon has a great questions. You’re more than a boy and you’re more than a girl. And let’s get out of the old definitions

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

All the things we’ve talked about and in A Return to Eros what we call, not transgender but unique gender. And unique gender means, your unique combination of those qualities that we call line and circle qualities, like what our cluster used to be called masculine and feminine. You’re not just Venus and Mars, but a phrase we once coined together ‘Beyond Venus and Mars’ Right? You’re a combination, you’re a unique gender. Once you get that, you get that actually all the challenges that men face in the workplace, women who are thank God gorgeously and are in the worst place in droves and taking over many of the workplaces, are going to face all the same challenges.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

Right? Because what the precise point that the liberal transgender movement has made is, is it’s not women and men, it’s actually transgender. Which means that actually can’t be bad men and good women, because we’ve actually dismissed that. Right? As a split, You can’t dismiss that as a split and then reclaim it to demonize men and rather as women.

Warren Farrell:               

But they have.

Marc Gafni:                     

Exactly, that’s the paradox.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

It’s kind of a new to realize actually and one part of liberalism says correctly, “Transgender it’s not just men and women.”

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

The other part says, “No, but really is.” Right. Good women, bad man. [inaudible 00:31:48] get back to being human beings.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

Human beings are unique and gorgeous, we’ve got to hold men tenderly and hold them to account. We’ve got to hold women tenderly, hold to account. Which means trust women and verify their process, like any human being.  And begin to create a culture of Eros, right? And a culture of love and a culture of creativity rooted in this new universe story.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

And this new set of narratives and maybe the last sense and turning to Warren and KK for closing remarks, we all live in an inescapable frameworks. So if you want to change reality, you can’t just fix a little detail. Going to change the story, you’re going to change the framework. Da Vinci is in Florence, hanging out in the renaissance and pre modernity has taken down so much of the world. Right? What Da Vinci says with his codes in Florence, and it’s happening in Venice is, we got to change the story. We got to move from pre-modern story, to majority story. Which is a new story of value, a new story of meaning. A new story of Eros, a new story of identity. [inaudible 00:32:50] deconstruct the whole thing and leaves to that a new story.

And [inaudible 00:32:55] cares about a new story. I think we can make one promise to people, read A Return to Eros. We’re not going to give you four steps to the fastest orgasm, but we can promise you that if you read ‘Return to Eros’ you will completely re eroticize your life. Orgasms will change because they’re a function of being right deeply inside Eros, and your entire sexual life, your entrepreneurial life, your business life, your relation life, your relationship like will radically change. Your arousal radically change because you’ll actually transform something at the source code. It’s a source code change and so that just so exciting and turning out to walk out to raft the goddess goes last or turning to Warren to give us any kind of closing remarks or recommendations to A Return to Eros or anything that of the like. No hits.

Warren Farrell:               

No. One of the things you hit on Marc, I think is so important is recognizing that being a liberal, being in the left wing and calling yourself progressive is no longer something we are able to call ourselves on the political left if progressive is not inclusive as progressive has been. If progressive demonizes men and overvalues women, just any more than the reverse. If progressive does not open up the universities to a dialogue, in which anything can be said and everything needs to be said in order for … And everything needs to be heard if we don’t teach everyone to listen to each other, we cannot call that progressive. It is only a new style of play war with each other. And that is that so for people who are progressive and finding that the free speech movement has been taken over by conservatives and liberals are now discouraging free speech, that’s really sad.

Marc Gafni:                     

And earlier of Eros.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes. And to sort of be the movement that created the sexual revolution and said it’s okay for women to take initiatives, it’s okay for women to honor their sexuality, it’s okay for women to have orgasms, it’s okay for us to be in charge of our bodies and ourselves and introduce all these progressive phenomenon. And now only focus on the part that is sex is dirty and you know you guys are the ones that seem to want it. You initiate the dirt and so what does a 14 year old boy feel about himself? He feels I’m the one that is the future Weinstein, I’m the one that’s the future Matt Lauer, I’m the one that is the future … I’m feeling ashamed of even being a male. One of the most brilliant young men I have ever heard, a 13 year old male did a [tenesto 00:35:44] And in the tenexto … I’m sorry just say it was regular YouTube talk, that he produced himself.

And in that tenexto, and in that said extra he talked about the shame that he felt being a male. That what was it male? It was this and it was being an attacker of women. Mostly an attacker of women that is the way he as a brilliant 13 year old boy defined himself as a male. That is the core of shame and that is the core of what we do not want our sons to be, because as you said very little good or no good comes from shame driven behavior.And so we need more that we have ever needed. The me too movement to progress into a dialogue to encourage the safety of men speaking up, Including encouraging the safety of wealthy men, the safety of white men speaking up. Not as if they’ve become the new demons.

Marc Gafni:                     

Yeah I know, thank you so much Warren. KK, give us some closing remarks blessings.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Thank you Warren.

Marc Gafni:                     

Beautiful.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Just to circle back around in terms of the idea of A Return to Eros and we need a new story, we need a new sexual narrative. Oops! Well we have someone knock, knock. We need a new sexual narrative. Sex is sacred because in that in this … Sorry, I just got distracted.  is abstract in this we just started. We need a new sexual narrative. We need a new story and sex is sacred because the new sexual narrative that we articulate in the book, is that sex is sacred because it is life. It is the pulse of life itself, so sex is … We look at sex as the fundamental nature of all existence. And when we reclaim our full sexual power, then we reclaim our life energy and that flows into all aspects of life and into our world.

And then sex becomes ethics, which I think is one of the most profound things to actually really realize when you get that. And then we begin to live in a world where every man, woman and child, when they actually own their full sexual agency. The world can actually shift in ways that we can never even imagine.

Marc Gafni:                     

And how beautiful.

Warren Farrell:               

Would you explain more about sex as ethics, can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Kristina Kincaid:              

Yeah, elaborate.

Marc Gafni:                     

Sure, sure. I mean, one of the core moves in the book is the move from … As KK, you say so beautifully from sexual ethics, which are given. That we take that as an absolute non-negotiable given to sex is ethics. That actually the bill of rights that is written in the body is sacred, right. The quivering tenderness, the wetness, the throbbing of a human being, fully alive in their sexual body, is encrypted in that body’s bill of rights. Yet the sense of loyalty to vulnerability, the sense that giving and receiving are one and not split. You can actually enact an entire bill of rights of all the dignities, right? Of human rights that come from actually the sexual body itself awake and alive.

There’s a beautiful text Warren, which says that if all the wisdom in the world wouldn’t have been given, and we just had the Song of Songs, which is the biblical book. Right? Which is this erotic story, all wisdom and all ethics to be learned from the Song of Songs. And until we reclaim sexual that way and maybe the closing remark to kind of wrap just the beautiful things Warren, that you’ve shared and KK, that you’ve shared. And It’s been such a delight and honor writing this book with you, right? Is there’s an implicit hit in new puritanism, that’s a thought.

And in this new puritanism senses correctly, is excess gravitas. That’s, it’s correct sensing and that actually, right? It’s sex positive is insufficient and sex negative is wrong and it’s definitely not neutral. And it’s definitely not about sex having babies, but in the sense of sex having gravitas and there’s a lack of a sense of agency and power, and a lack of a narrative about identity. What we’ve done is we’ve created a sexual puritanism, which has a hidden assumption. Sex happened? It’s bad. The fact that sex and the issue of sexual harassment in the office were supposed to be, when you track a number of Yale professors have written fantastic articles, issue was harassment. Right?

Issue wasn’t sex, right? Of course people are going to meet the authors, of course they’re going to be office romantics, where are people supposed to meet? Right? Of course. And of course we want Amore in the office and we want Eros in the office. Do we need rules of consent? Of course we do. Do need to watch out for abuses of power in all sides? The abuse of sexual power, the abuse promotional power? Of course we do, do we want to de-eroticize the office? Oh my God, what a disaster that would be? What man and what woman wants to live in an office, which is de-eroticized? Which doesn’t have the flow and play of Eros and where people can’t meet and fall in love, and get married? Or meet and fall in love and be sexual with each other.

The notion that maybe that we could just close on our side with this, the notion, Warren, that in sex men are getting it and women are giving it up, is the fundamental notion. Because it means that women have split off from their desire, we problematize male sexuality. When in fact, we want to honor the feminine in all of her ways, in deep devotion. I mean, in utter complete devotion. And we want to honor the masculine. And in his beauty utter and complete devotion and begin to reenact and re-eroticize and return to Eros.

Warren Farrell:               

Yes, that’s obsolete. And to … I think illustrate the problem at the workplace, the challenge at the workplace you’re dealing with, is the relationship between courtship in a law court. And in the workplace, almost everyone who is a female who is single who gets married, a very high percentage of those women marry somebody who they met at the workplace. But among the people they marry, who they meet at the workplace, almost everyone who does get married to someone they meet at the workplace, marry someone above them at the workplace or at least at their level. Not someone below them at their work’s place.

Marc Gafni:                     

Right.

Warren Farrell:               

So we have a culture which says, that males initiate sexual contact but it’s males above you at work that you’re interested in. And if a male above you at work that you’re interested in initiates contact, it is a courtship that can easily go to a law court if it doesn’t work out. Because it is also sexual harassment by definition, a person above you at work initiating in the workplace. So what do we need to do about this? We need to understand that we need to talk about it, we need to see how complex it is, we need to see that mutual vulnerability of both sexes. And until we understand that there will be enmity associated with sexuality, there will be a lack of ethics associated with sexuality and there will not be the return to Eros.

Marc Gafni:                     

There will not be the return to Eros, and thank you so much Warren. Thank you so much Kristina. I think what we’re trying to say, everyone is listening. Thank you for listening, thank you for your time and we appreciate you reading the book. This is not a side issue, right? Warren you know  that you know and talked to Kathy today earlier today, to Kristina. We’ve been talking about this issue for several years, think tank. People would say to me, “Let’s talk about purpose, we got all these other core issues we talk about at think tank, why are we talking about sexuality?” Sexuality is the core of our identity, it’s the initial core of our identity.

And if we don’t actually engage it, right? And reclaim it with gravitas, the result is an utter disaster at every level of society and the suffering it will cost. Right? The suffering is beyond imagination, so what a privilege to be in this conversation?

Kristina Kincaid:              

Yes.

Marc Gafni:                     

And to be charting this step forward. Thank you both so much,

Kristina Kincaid:              

Thank you.

Warren Farrell:               

It’s been a real pleasure, really-

Kristina Kincaid:              

Total Pleasure.

Warren Farrell:               

Fun and I’ve learned even as that lesson can talk.

Marc Gafni:                     

As have we.

Kristina Kincaid:              

Exactly.

Marc Gafni:                     

Thank you so, so-


>>> Buy A Return to Eros Here <<<

marc gafni, dr. marc gafni, gafni, eros, a return to eros, kristina kincaid

Leave a Reply

  • (will not be published)

Time limit is exhausted. Please reload the CAPTCHA.