Barbara: The most amazing thing that we have discovered through Cosmogenesis is the Universe has direction.

Marc: It has direction. It’s going someplace.

Barbara: It’s going somewhere and it’s going somewhere that we want to go if we want greater love, greater freedom, greater connectivity. It seems to have a value system deep inside the design of evolution. To me, that was the greatest revelation in a world which looked meaningless or looked like we’re just going for more power and more control to a world that was calling us for a greater love, greater connectivity, greater consciousness, and I would say greater life purpose.

Marc: So let’s look at this, ok? So Barbara throws out a big sentence that we both completely share. There seems to be a value system inside of the structure of evolution, one.

Two, we talked about last week, the week before that we’re central, we’re personally implicated in the evolutionary story.

Watch this fourth in a series of 10, beautiful videos, with Barbara Marx Hubbard and Marc Gafni:


Marc: Welcome. We are here in week four of The Universe: A Love Story with Barbara Marx Hubbard and Marc Gafni, the man with only two names. So it’s exciting.

The first three weeks we’ve just kind of laid down the beginning of the framework. Now we want to apologize to you. It’s slightly sincere, slightly insincere. It’s kind of a mixture of both, but what we mean is in the first three weeks we took a lot of things for granted. We talked about existentialism but we didn’t really talk about what is existentialism. The Renaissance you know, schools of art and we just had a little bit of a conversation which we think you were able to track all of but we’ve gotten some comments from you which asked us to really explain everything. So if we say existentialism, we’ll stop and say by existentialism, we mean… Ok? We’ve gotten a bunch of these comments saying wow we’re really loving the podcasts but we don’t want to miss anything so please unpack everything. So we promise to do that. Thank you for those comments. Those were super helpful. Good Marc? Good Barbara? We’ve got a deal.

Ok. So week four and now it takes off. Our topic in podcast four is Evolutionary Love. We’re going to start explaining more deeply what we mean when we say the Universe is not a fact, but a story; it’s a love story.

So what drives evolution? We know that in science there are four forces:

  • The electromagnetic,
  • gravity, and
  • the strong and
  • the weak.

But again if those mean a lot to you then fantastic. If they don’t, fine. Those are the four forces of the physical Universe. But what we’re really understanding very clearly now both in interior sciences and in exterior sciences; meaning both in a classical, what we classically call science and based our own interior understanding on how things work is that something’s got to be driving the whole thing.

Barbara: The most amazing thing that we have discovered through Cosmogenesis is the Universe has direction.

Marc: It has direction. It’s going someplace.

Barbara: It’s going somewhere and it’s going somewhere that we want to go if we want greater love, greater freedom, greater connectivity. It seems to have a value system deep inside the design of evolution. To me, that was the greatest revelation in a world which looked meaningless or looked like we’re just going for more power and more control to a world that was calling us for a greater love, greater connectivity, greater consciousness, and I would say greater life purpose.

Marc: So let’s look at this, ok? So Barbara throws out a big sentence that we both completely share. There seems to be a value system inside of the structure of evolution, one.

Two, we talked about last week, the week before that we’re central, we’re personally implicated in the evolutionary story.

So we’re personally implicated in articulating and fulfilling the values of evolution. Now let’s just get this really clear. That idea barely existed in the consciousness of the world very, very recently. The assumption about evolution was it a blind force. The human being evolves willy nilly against the we kind of evolves when it’s better than willy nilly which who knows what they mean by that. The human being evolves to a kind of random set of accidents right? There’s a random set of accidents that spawn forth a human being. There’s a blind force of evolution. The world is a scientific machine. It’s a clockwork Universe. There are no real interiors to speak of. Values are merely subjective and the human being is decentered but the world itself is emptied of meaning.

The world is appraised by a writer named Lewis Mumford. The world is disqualified meaning quality, interiors, values, love, loyalty, none of those are actually real. What’s real is that the Universe is a machine. Now that’s a big deal. We’re now realizing that narrative wasn’t true. We’re now realizing that based on the best information that we have, the Universe is driven by evolutionary love. Now you went Barbara to the end of the story. You went to evolution has values which is hugely true. I want to, with your permission, let’s go back to the beginning of the story and see how we get there.

So I’m a quark. A quark is a subatomic particle. Barbara’s way ahead of me. I’m just a quark hanging out in Manhattan doing my thing in Idaho. I’m a quark in Bombay, right? You know? And I’m just doing my thing. And then, I’m attracted to another quark. I feel like whoa! That other quark is kinda hot. Can we hang out? And over a large periods of evolutionary time, there’s an attraction.

There’s Thomas Berry’s term… Thomas Berry was a great evolutionary philosopher. There’s an allurement between subatomic particles. They’re attracted to each other. There’s a force in the Universe of Eros, of attraction. Love by any other name because one of the properties of love is that love brings people together. Barbara and I love each other so let’s do this project together. We’re brought together. It’s happening right now. So love is this force of attraction which allures quarks to become atoms, quarks (let’s try to get those words straight) quarks to become atoms, atoms to become molecules, molecules to become complex molecules, complex molecules to become organisms, organisms to become organelles, organelles right?

It’s the entire movement of evolution is driven by a force which we might call Eros or love. There’s other names we’ll give to it a little later. Science calls it self-organization or the driving towards emergence, which is the emergence of more and more complex meaning as Barbara said in week one, more and more interconnected organisms that have more and more love internally, more and more cells internally, more and more pieces connecting internally, and have the ability different beings, different organisms to love each other more.

So dogs can love each other more and dogs are interiorly more complex than they are in size. Dogs can love each other more than amoebas love each other. They can consciously choose to take care of each other more than amoebas can. They’re loving each other and in the interior of the dog there’s more love, there’s more inner-connectivity, there’s more Eros, there’s more attraction.

So this process of love starts at the very beginning. It doesn’t start people say love starts when sex begins. No. Love is built in to the very fabric of reality and it is the driving force that it moves the whole story and at the end we’ll come to values. It’s going to wake up as values. It’s going to wake up. But what about the beginning of the story?

Barbara: Well I was just going to say even before the quarks…

Marc: Even before the quarks, yes. Yes.

Barbara: The thing that is the most amazing to me is those first three seconds…

Marc: After the big bang.

Barbara: After the big bang that they say that if the energy had been faster, we would have never have cohered into matter or if it had been slower in the first three seconds, we would have been stuck with [0:08:00] no growth at all. So however it happened, those first three seconds you might say were the source code of the Universe in the first three seconds would create more life, create more consciousness and the quarks appeared.

Marc: It’s just that sentence, Love. Ok beloved? Just that sentence even before quarks.

Let’s stay before quarks, ok? So it’s the first three seconds Barbara is saying, all the laws of physics and math right? All the laws of everything are established. A level of dazzling complexity. Did you ever get through calculous? It’s not that easy. All of that is established… All the laws of physics, all the laws of mathematics, all the laws of reality are established in the first three seconds which is then going to guide the track of evolution.

Now I’m going to go one more. Ready? Before the first three seconds, in what’s called one to the negative forty-three which is a millionth of a millionth of a millionth of a millionth of a millionth of a millionth, right? By a millionth of a second. I wasn’t counting my millionths so don’t hold me to that. But it’s actually the very, very beginning of the beginning of the beginning of the beginning the laws of physics don’t apply.

There are no laws of physics there. It’s pure nothing. There’s no thing. There’s no laws of physics and out of that pure potentiality then laws of physics start. So in that one to the negative forty-three which we now in science can identify it in a way which we couldn’t identify it fifty years ago. We now know about that moment which is no laws of physics. It’s actually from the mystical perspective when we go inside of that reality, its pure love breathing everything into existence.

Barbara: Pure consciousness.

Marc: Pure consciousness. And it’s ultimately the source of all mystery and then the three seconds, the first three second which all the laws are established and then the laws begin to evolve towards higher and higher levels of connectivity, Eros, love, wow.

Barbara: So this is why you can really say love was at even before the beginning. Because to put before the big bang, no physics, no laws. To put those laws in place that actually allowed the allurement and attraction of the quarks and the protons and the electrons all the way up means for me intelligent and you know we were talking about the way people have looked at this process. One way has been the creator God as you said does it from the outside and we’re the result of that creator God intelligence.

Marc: Who’s a big human being who hates homosexuals, who loves only one nation…?

Barbara: And doesn’t like women very much.

Marc: Doesn’t like women very much. And it’s the negative view of the creator God.

Barbara: The creator God and we’re more or less disempowered unless we follow the laws of the creator God. That was on one side. On the other…

Marc: And the creator God wants to make sure that you don’t do anything wrong when you’re naked.

Barbara: On the other side of the equation is it’s a meaningless Universe. There’s no creator, there’s no design, it’s an accident.

Marc: It’s an accident.

Barbara: Now to call this design in the first three seconds an accident…

Marc: Is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

Barbara: I don’t know how you can logically from a scientific perspective, call that an accident and I do know that one of the ways they’ve tried to do it is by saying there must be billions of Universes and by accident one was perfectly designed for energy matter and life. Whatever the truth of that is, it seems completely illogical to me to say that perfect design was an accident.

Marc: And this is important because let’s be really clear here.

Science does not say as a fact that the Universe is an accident.

Accident is about interiors, about what’s driving it. Science can only describe and that only is huge and beautiful and wonderful and science is the best articulation we have of the laws of nature for sure. But to say, to talk about what the nature, the interior nature of those laws are, where that design came from, to assert that as an accident has nothing to do with science. That’s not scientific. There’s this assumption out there oh science says reality’s an accident. Science has nothing to say about it. Science is describing exteriors.

Now let’s get this right. I really want you to understand this because there are dozens and dozens of scientists who are leading physicists, leading quantum physicists, leading molecular biologists that I’ve talked to over the last thirty years and not one of them in a private conversation would say that the Universe is an accident. Actually that’s considered to be paten the absurd.

Sometimes there’s dogmas of science where science isn’t being scientific, it’s being dogmatic. It’s claiming things on faith because it needs to for a lot of reasons which we’ll talk about later. Just like religion used to claim a lot of things on faith. So I want you to really get how absurd it is.

Imagine if and here’s an example. Ok? So right before we got started filming, I got Barbara these flowers. Do you like the flowers?

Barbara: Yea, I like the flowers a lot.

Marc: Everyone like them? Ok. So imagine that I had brought Barbara as a gift a reality that has a design that had in it all of the laws of mathematics and all of the laws of physics and I give it to her as a gift and she says wow that was an accident. Imagine I worked in my garage and I made the most beautiful, elegant, stunning painting that you could possibly imagine and she looks and says oh well that was an accident. Nice. It’s absurd. And that stunning painting that I designed or that stunning creation I designed in my garage for seven weeks and I give it to her it’s because I love her. And it’s I’m creating this design, this elegance, this beauty out of the sense of wanting to gift, of wanting to love.

And so mystics meaning people who enter into using scientific experimental methods (we’ll talk about that in a different week) entered into the interior face of the Cosmos, mystics have been able to realize that what’s driving the big bang is love itself; that love begins the whole process. But you don’t need to be a mystic to figure it out. Just get really simple and basic. Reality gives us this gift of dazzling elegance and beauty beyond imagination. Dazzling what was your word, Barbara? Design.

Barbara: Design, yes. Design going somewhere valuable to me.

Marc: Going somewhere valuable to me, not designed by a homophobic creator God who says only this people is chosen. Not that kind of design, but the inherent intelligence of reality itself that is dazzling beyond any imagination.

Just study molecular biology for a few minutes and you’re going to be blowing out of your mind. Oh that was all an accident. Really? So that’s not a claim made by science, right? Science doesn’t talk about accident, right? Science can’t make a claim in that realm. And religion can’t tell us there was a homophobic, angry God who did it. [0:16:00]

What we’re realizing it there’s an interior design in the Cosmos which moves towards more and more connectivity, more and more mutuality, more and more recognition of each other, more and more embrace. That’s love by any other name. Does that make sense Barbara?

Barbara: It’s such a good design when you come to hear it this way. I just like to express my appreciation for the Universe having this design. There’s a sense of thankfulness on my part to even be part of this now having the wisdom intelligence with the scientific background and the mystical traditions to see myself, a living example of the 13.8 billion years that it took to create a being able to know the Universe is a love story. The Universe must be pleased if I can say so that species are intelligent enough to discover what it’s been up to all along.

Marc: Wow.

Barbara: I know I’m jumping ahead of the story.

Marc: No, no. You’re awesome. You’re awesome. So let’s just track this forum that we’re going to close here. We’re going to pick up next week.

So the Universe is driven by evolutionary love which is the force of allurement and attraction that moves to more and more complexity, more and more inner-connectivity, more and more interiority, more and more depth of consciousness.

A dog has more depth than an amoeba. A human being has more depth than a crocodile, right? More and more depth, more and more capacity to love, more and more capacity to be aware.

That’s the movement of evolution.

And then Barbara, let’s go back to you and I really want to ask you to end for us with how you started because that thrust of movement towards love awakens as you began with human beings becoming aware of these values consciously and being able to act on them consciously. So love, awareness, nurturing, caring, recognition, union and embrace, all these values become conscious as values that we hold as the Universe awakens to itself. So maybe describe that to us?

Barbara: Well, for me the feeling that my own impulse toward greater love, toward greater creativity and goodness is the Universe in me expressing that.

So it makes a huge difference for me being a separate person who wants to be loving to being a person in whom the force of creation is expressing itself as love because the empowerment that I feel when I feel my desire for greater love is the Universal process within me.

I become so thankful and it’s in an old fashioned way where you would say thank you God for the process. In a newer way you might say thank you process of creation. Thank you Universal impulse of design. See? We don’t have a good word for God in this metaphor.

Marc: Right and universal impulse of design or intelligent Cosmos is what we mean in the evolved sense when we talk about God. The God you don’t believe in doesn’t exist. You got that? The old mythological God, you can let it go.

The universal impulse of design you’ve got to be careful because the word God’s not in there. That’s not just an automatic dead, inert, mechanistic universe. That’s the most throbbing, living, radically wise, alive, infinitely powerful force that we can even vaguely begin to imagine exponentially way beyond what our imagination can even begin to touch. That’s what we’re talking about. Universal force of design just blows your mind out. So that’s driven by, that’s love. That’s love driving the process.

So let’s hold here. I know we didn’t explain it all. We’re just kind of beginning to put it on the table. Do you have a last word for us, Barbara?

Barbara: I think it’s a long word.

Marc: It’s a long word…. next week? Next week.

Barbara: Yes, I think so.

Marc: Next week it is.

Barbara: Yes.

Marc: Ok. I love you.

Barbara: Yes.

Marc: Ok. Here we go. Next week.

Do you want to learn more?

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