Watch and listen to this 8-minute video, the eighth part of a 10-part dialogue with Ervin Laszlo and Marc Gafni in Tuscany on the topic of Evolutionary Love–envisioning a new Renaissance that will take us to the future. Watch previous posts from this series;

Enjoy the eighth part of the dialogue here:


Dr. Ervin László: Well you, in a way, you talk about also, but what is it? What is it that is making us enjoy what we call art, or music, or dance, or song, whatever, what is it? It’s an experience. It’s experience of sharing of oneness. You mentioned moment ago, you said, well, forgive me, but I look … pay attention, even though I’m closing my eyes. Did you notice that great conductors, and I had a privilege of knowing quite a few, but the conductors close their eyes most of the time. They open them a little bit, just to make sure that they’re there in the right place, and everybody’s listening, but because they are entirely inside their own experience. And they communicate that way.

Now, the difference between a poor orchestra and a great orchestra, is a poor orchestra is just plays the score and looks at the conductor as to say what does he say. In a great orchestra, the members become one, and they start to become one with the conductor, and they start feeling what the conductor does. It’s an instrument, it’s becoming one. It’s on a much higher level than driving a car, but it’s there, it’s the same thing. To me, I could feel becoming one with a piano, with an instrument, and then with the people who are work, who are playing music with me. And the people who are listening, because they are not passive listeners. Passive listeners are no good, people who are co-creating, who enter into this.

So, all of this is really that through our senses, we don’t need to just pick up on their ears, but we can use our sense as instrument to go deeper down into ourselves, where we perceive our oneness, our co-evolution, our co-creation, let me say, of other people, with other people. And that way, I think, that instrumentality, that to me is the aesthetic experience. I got it mostly through music. You can get it through dance. I would love to know how to dance. I was never very good at dancing, but when I did a little bit of it, I was felt like I moved together with somebody else, you’re becoming really part of that person. And whatever your way that you can enjoy the world around you, is that sense of that sense of significantly one, becoming significantly one with the other.

That, to me is the ecstatic experience, a really deep part of my life, and in a way I’m searching for that, also in my writing, in my talking. If I’m on the right track, I feel sort of one with the ideas, and if I give a talk some this, and I have to think of now, I have to talk about this, talk about that, that is artificial, it falls apart. If you feel that you can say something, and the other person resonates with what I think we are doing here also, it’s like that, then you’re beginning to feel like you’re entering into a common space. And that is just another form of evolutionary love.

Dr. Marc Gafni: Oh, that’s gorgeous. So you don’t disappear into the one, you appear as the one. That’s the location of the paradox that we’re pointing to here, and the reason I keep coming back to it, Ervin, is because I’ve found, and I don’t know what your experience is, is that the reason people reject the notion of oneness, because they’re afraid they’re going to disappear. There’s an enormous fear, and I think we have to, with great respect, hold enlightenment teachers responsible, of which I’ve been one of for many years, so I hold myself responsible, for teaching enlightenment improperly. We’ve always taught enlightenment as disappearing into the one. You become true self, and then there’s an intuitive rejection by the main stream, which says what about me, then the enlightenment teacher says, well that’s just your ego.

It’s not just your ego. There’s something deeper than the egoic self, which is the unique expression of oneness. You appear as the one, and let me stay with the symphony image. A number of years ago, someone from Booz Allen, that is a consulting firm in America, came into a seminar where I happened to be attending, and they played a symphony, a Beethoven symphony, and then they played the symphony again and they took out one instrument, and I can’t quite remember the instrument right now, but you actually could hear this one instrument, which was by itself seemingly irrelevant. Without that instrument the assembly could actually feel the difference.

So you actually realize, who are you, and that’s the great question, who are you, you are an instrument in the symphony, and without you, the symphony sounds different. If I would say it in the 16th century in Italy, Decapolis said, God needs your service. You’re actually needed by all that is. That’s a stunning realization, that I actually have a unique gift to give, a unique life to live, that’s irreducibly needed by all that is, and that’s not a kind of psychological idea, that’s actually the nature of reality is, you’ve described it in Self Actualizing Cosmos, and so many other books is, you’re a part, which is using your language, you’re a part that’s irreducibly needed by the whole. It’s utterly independent, and yet part of the whole at the same time. And without your part in this, the whole becomes a heap.

Dr. Ervin László: That’s the important difference, you just said it. A heap is more or less casual assembly of different elements. A whole is an integration of different elements. A whole is not a whole if a part is missing, it’s not longer a whole.

Dr. Marc Gafni: A whole is not a whole if a part’s missing.

Dr. Ervin László: No, it’s something that is … it’s something else, it’s a part of a whole, it’s a maybe on a way to a whole. It’s a degeneration of a whole, but a whole is that which integrates all its parts. A great work of art, and I say whatever you are sensitive to, it can be a great poem, it can be music, it can be whatever other form of art or literature, is one where you can’t take any element of it, as you just mentioned. To me, a great work of art, and here the prototype, the paradigm case for that is all the compositions of Mozart, is such that you can not simply change it. There was a famous dialog, I think in the film Amadeus, where the prince who was sponsoring Mozart said to Mozart, there are too many notes in that piece. He was just trying to be clever.

And Mozart said, no, no, there aren’t too many. He also said, there also aren’t too few, there are just enough. There are just as many as there have to be. And you have that sense when you hear a piece of music that is that level of wholeness, the perfectionist of a Mozart, gut you can have it in the Beatles. You can have it in many other ways, that every part has to play its role. If it’s not there, it’s not there, it disappear anymore. It benefits not there, it’s having cancer.

Dr. Marc Gafni: It’s having cancer, so symphony is really the primary image that’s emerging from today’s dialog, is unending symphony, Ervin’s next, next book. I think it’s after the next one, what we call a unique self symphony, which is one expression of the unending symphony. It’s a self organizing universe, in which the organizing principle is uniqueness.

If you like the dialogue, you may be interested in our online course “ Becoming a Future Human”

Becoming a Future Human, Barbara Marx Hubbard, Marc Gafni, Daniel SchmachtenbergerWho do we need to become in order for humanity to make it though its current dangerous technological adolescence and to create a world that is truly commensurate with our full human, scientific, social, spiritual, and technological capabilities? If you are here to embody your unique gift fully for the benefit of all life and play your role as a steward of the cosmos and the birth of a new humanity, then welcome! This course is for everyone that knows humanity is at the brink of an epochal shift, that believes we can create the world the great sages knew was possible, and that wants to be a part of co-creating that world together.

>>> Learn more about the course here <<<

Watch and listen to this 15-minute video, the fifth part of a 10-part dialogue with Ervin Laszlo and Marc Gafni in Tuscany on the topic of Evolutionary Love–envisioning a new Renaissance that will take us to the future. Watch previous posts from this series:

Enjoy the fifth part of the dialogue here:


Marc Gafni: So, you remember that essay by Turing, morphogenesis, one of the classical essays of the last 50 years, where Turing, who was the code cracker in World War II, the Turing Test, that actually broke the Nazi codes, Turing introduces in this essay a lot of the notion of the self organizing universe, or what you called in your book the self actualizing cosmos, some of the building blocks of that system, of the entire world of self organization, were ready in Turing’s essay.

What does self organization basically say? Again, stating in accessible terms, you have an anthill. How does every ant in the anthill know what to do? The answer is there’s a self organizing process in which ants receiver chemical signals, pheromones, from other ants, and then the ant knows precisely what to do locally, but that local self organization produces this global process of an anthill, which is elegant, organized, industrious, creative, everything in its right location, kind of gorgeous. Now, human beings aren’t ants. Human beings are awakened consciousness, and yet human beings, like ants, live in this larger system that Ervin’s described, which is super coherent, a term that I had borrowed from his book, “Self Actualizing Cosmos”. I love when Ervin quotes “Supercoherence”, which I borrowed from his book, so super coherence is the kind of, what my friend Daniel calls, and omni-considerate universe. You’re omni-considerate, you consider all the factors.

You begin to produce solar, not coal. You realize that you’re part of the larger whole. Now, this system, what structures the self organizing universe of human beings, as opposed to aunts. Aunts operate in this interior system, which pheromone secretions guide the ant, and the ant, the way the literature says, the ant looks at 10 other ants at street level, and the ant receives the secretions and knows what to do. What happens with human beings? Fragrance is not what does it for us, we use deodorant to get rid of fragrance, so what actually happens to move human beings? What’s the organizing principle of the human self organization, and I would suggest, Ervin, that the organizing principle of human self organization, is this structure of consciousness, which we’re calling unique self.

Actually unique self is the principle which guides the self organizing universe, and that it’s actually the structure of consciousness that allows us to integrate in a higher, what we might call a higher integral embrace, autonomy in communion, of these two great principles of autonomy and communion, the emergence of the individual, and communion being a part of a larger community, which have actually fought with each other for 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, forever, for the first time we can integrate them, in the self actualizing cosmos, if we understand that the cosmos awakens through us, when we actually become the awake evolutionary impulse, but we’re the personal face of the impulse.

We’re the irreducible unique face of the impulse, so we have irreducible dignity, and yet our irreducible unique creativity is guiding the self organizing universe, so that’s a piece of the puzzle I want to introduce to the table, and see how does that play in the natural world, is that an expression of the natural world, how does it play in your thought, how does it feel to you?

Dr. László: I think that’s an extremely important concept. We can phrase it in different ways, extremely important as you put it. You talked about the anthill. What do the ants have? They have a set of signals, which are pheromones, pheromones, and that means that they perceive, they have a sense whereby they get signals from other ants, okay, and then they have an instinct, I’m just using quotation marks of these things, which tells them what to do with it, with those signals, how to process this. What happens in an information system in a computer? You get on the web, or when you connect, you get a set of information, and then your computer has a software and tells you what to do with it. And you have a further software here in your mind, where it tells you … you respond to the messages that you get, what to do with it.

So you always have information and coding, or decoding, with information. Now, the big fallacy of the modern, western mentality is that it reduce the information that we are getting to a very small spectrum, the spectrum that you have consciously perceived through your sense organs. So the whole world became a set of sights and sounds and smells, even the smells and the tastes are less than that, and the touch is almost all what you see, sense data, as the analytical philosopher said, and sounds. And the whole world consists of those things. And many people try to reconstruct the world, what we have, just on the basis of what we understand of the terms of this sensory atomism or logical atomism, as Bertrand Russell called it.

Turns out it doesn’t work, because first of all, the universe is far more rich, provides a far more wealth, great spectrum of information, than just what comes through a few of our sense organs. Now we’re discovering that the microtubules, the subordinate, but extremely important networks in our brain, that’s below the level of neurons, Penrose and Hameroff and others talk about this, and they are networks of networks of networks below it, down to the nanometer level, to the extremely small level. And these networks resonate with information, that is … that appears on higher levels, but is there. And it connects us with the rest, th is is quantal level information, so we resonate with the rest of the world.

So we have, what I want to say, to make this point, we have an input of information, which comes to us from the world, much richer than what our sensory organs tell us, the great spiritual systems, as you well know, were much richer. They didn’t disregard these subtle intuitions, this sense of something higher, or something deeper, anywhere beyond the everyday world. And you get actually, real information of that, we can show how these networks of this subneural networks in our brain actually resonate with quantum waves that are propagated in space, because space is full of them, space is not a vacuum, space is planum, it’s a consistent wholeness of all of the information about all of the things that occur. It’s all there in space.

And it all produces signals, okay, so that’s one thing. So we have input variables, and perhaps the traditional people use more of this input than so called modern people do. But we also have to know what to do with it. Now, traditional people used instinctive orientation, or perhaps their intuitive wisdom, the wisdom iterations of what to do. Now, we have reduced the world to some information, and also reduced our idea of the world, of there being only matter like things that interact with each other according to laws of nature that Newton described, and so on. And everything else is just imagination.

So, if you recognize that this is about a ritual, it’s interacting on many levels, it’s producing information about all the things that are happening. We can be entangled with all the other things. We can perceive everything else in the world. In fact, deeply all of the meditative prayer for states of consciousness, as you well know, we can perceive a lot more of the world than we do, in ordinary states. So, we have information, and we have instinctive orientation of what to do, the code, how to handle it. We can decode the information, we can make sense of it. We have to open up our minds, open up our consciousness, so we can deal with this information that is coming to us, these signals.

Then we become anthills, but that’s an awful thing to say, because we don’t … we are not becoming ants in an anthill. We have the information and the code, but we have something else, we have ourself, our individuality, so that we know what to do with this, not purely as a mechanical part of a larger system that orients us, that tells us what to do, we can rediscover it consciously, we can act in a way that we know that we are part of the system. We know that we can further the system, we can be in alignment, we can be … we can be coherent with the coherence in the world. And that is what can give meaning to our existence. We can consciously become part of this unfolding symphony in the world.

Marc Gafni: Yeah, so consciously become part of the unfolding symphony, and so you describe, Ervin, two levels, and I want to be very precise here. So the first level is, we take in and … of course, I’m shutting my eyes on camera, because I’m thinking and forgetting about the camera, but that’s okay, so stay with us. So the first level is, Ervin’s describing that I actually recover my ability to receive information from the larger system.

Dr. László: Right.

Marc Gafni: and I do that through practice, and i want to be very clear friends listening, when Ervin talks about quanta, he’s not reducing the larger system to its physicality, he’s talking about quantum both literally, quantum are a literal, physical expression, but you also, if I follow you correctly in your writing as well, you use the word quanta in two ways. You use it as a kind of physical expression of reality, but quanta also refers for you to kind of, the underlying, deep dimension of reality, because quanta is both physical, it’s part of the world revealed by the eye of the senses, and the eyes of the senses doesn’t, of course, mean the naked eye. The eye of the senses means any way that we amplify senses.

Human beings have become very, very good at amplifying our natural senses. A telescope sees more. Positive emission tomography sees more, but they’re still operating in the sensory world, so in a certain sense, even beneath quanta, even beneath the sensory world, is the deeper dimension of what we might call essence, that if your will, births, that informs, that animates the sensory world. So when we’re talking about quanta reality, we’re not merely talking about, if my understanding of the way you’re using the word, Ervin, correctly, you use it in two ways. You use it to describe that the network of interlocking its, but you also use it to point towards the underlying world of essence, that animates the world of its, and that’s inseparable from them. Is that fair?

Dr. László: Well, absolutely, you put your finger on this. I’m obviously reluctant to come for with just my own particular concepts, but here’s you’re practically forcing me to do that.

Marc Gafni: Hopefully politely, because I’m in your home.

Dr. László: Yes, well I appreciate it, waiting for it actually. I’ve talked about a deeper dimension in the world, which I call the Akasha Dimension, because Akasha was the idea that 5,000 years ago the Rishis in India had talked about as the fundamental dimension of the world, and so I say that, yes indeed the world has not only … that manifest level, which are little particles of quanta joining in love together, and forming systems and living systems and ecologies and planets and galaxies and so on. There is, underneath, something which is a less dense, more ratified domain of the cosmos, where there are not actual things, but there is the software of the things. There is the information. There are the elements that Plato, that’s what I said I’m becoming more and more Platonic, that Plato called forms and ideas. That’s why they’re called eternal objects. There are … and today, increasingly in the quantum cosmology, we are discovering an area or domain of reality, which is beyond space time.

It creates space time, it gives rise to space time, so it isn’t in space time. So this is like a cosmic mind. It’s a cosmic logos. It’s a cosmic kind of consciousness. You can talk the divine consciousness if you wish, but it’s something that orients this process, whereby the denser energies become particles, the particles join together, and so the quanta on one level, which is a densified energy, arises out of the rarefied energies on the lower level. When you have a particle, virtual particle, you know, every once it disappears. In fact, extremely fast, and it just pops in and our of existence. So where is it? It’s the same particle, and it comes back is the exact same properties. If you modify it, it comes back modified, so what happened to the universe before it was born, before the Big Bang?

What happens when the last galaxy, galactic sized black holes, disappear? It falls back. The ancients called this fall … arises out of and falls into this Akasha Dimension. We talk about this unified field, which is there, so not everything is on the level where we can observe it, we can interact with it, but the other things is deeper, but it’s even more real, because it’s what guides, what orients, what happens in the world.

Marc Gafni: Right, and it’s really a beautiful way to say it, that actually what we think is real, is actually often just the surface expression of reality, and the actually deeper dimension … let me say it this way, spirit is more real than the physical, and the realness or concreteness of physicality doesn’t even begin to exhaust, it doesn’t have sufficient realness, sufficient thickness, to actually touch the interior dimension of spirit, which animates.

>>> You can watch the whole 10-part dialogue here <<<

In their dialogue, Ervin Laszlo and Marc Gafni share about the Second Shock of Existence, the New Renaissance, Evolutionary Love, and Unique Self Enlightenment as well as cutting-edge topics like super-coherence, self-organization, and the Unique Self Symphony.

If you like the dialogue, you may be interested in our online course “ Becoming a Future Human”

Becoming a Future Human, Barbara Marx Hubbard, Marc Gafni, Daniel SchmachtenbergerWho do we need to become in order for humanity to make it though its current dangerous technological adolescence and to create a world that is truly commensurate with our full human, scientific, social, spiritual, and technological capabilities? If you are here to embody your unique gift fully for the benefit of all life and play your role as a steward of the cosmos and the birth of a new humanity, then welcome! This course is for everyone that knows humanity is at the brink of an epochal shift, that believes we can create the world the great sages knew was possible, and that wants to be a part of co-creating that world together.

>>> Learn more about the course here <<<

Today is the first day of Chanukkah and we, the team of the Center for Integral Wisdom with our President Dr. Marc Gafni, want to give you a little gift.

Get a little taste from our Reclaiming Eros Self Study Online Course

Listen to the Story of the Holy Snuff Box

>>> Learn More about Reclaiming Eros Here <<<


Marc Gafni has also told the Story of the Holy Snuff Box on his blog:

marc gafni, gafni, dr. marc gafni, holy snuff boxEverybody knows that Holy Beggars hold the world together. Thus would one modern master introduce the following sacred story. Never, never pass by a holy beggar, and they are all holy. Walk across the street. Go out of your way! Who knows who he really is? Who knows what great soul lays hidden in that tattered beggar? You never know… You never know. All you can know that is if someone asks, they must certainly need.

One day a beggar came to see the Holy Israel, Master of the Name. He was angry and depressed. “What kind of a God do you have. I used to be rich – I helped many people. But now look at me – I have lost everything. It’s not fair. How did such a fate fall upon me?!” And with that the beggar broke down into tears.

“Sweet Yossele,” said Israel, Master of the Name. “All the mysteries are in your own life. Think back to Yom Kippur six years ago.”

And now the master Israel had Yossele’s complete attention. For how did he know that his name was Yossele – and how could he know what he had done six years ago? Master Israel continued. “It was a fast day, the holiest day of the year. A day when we pray all day long. People on that day are at their weakest, but also at their highest. You remember, Yossele, that you brought the snuff box to the prayer service?” For although on this fast day eating is proscribed, fragrance is permitted. Often, as in the prayer fellowship I grew up in, snuff boxes would be passed around, to offer fragrance to revive the spirits for prayer.

>>> Read the whole story here <<<


>>> Learn More about Reclaiming Eros Here <<<

RE-Product-Course-Image_FINALImagine being fully expressed with an unstoppable life force that aligned you with the will, the desire, the knowledge and the creative impulse to engage ALL areas of your life full-on; without fear or shame stopping you from moving forward. Imagine the transformative power and positive impact you’d have on your personal relationships and potentially be a major influence in the world.

This is what you will learn and become through taking this 9-week video course, professionally filmed on location during the First Festival of Love in Holland.

Uncover the Secret Powers of Eros in Order to…

  • Become fully alive, fulfilled, and at home in your own life
  • Live a life of passion, purpose, and integrity to fulfill your most important goals
  • Discover a new relationship to sexuality as teaching you how to live erotically in all the non-sexual dimensions of your life
  • Enrich not just our personal existence but our whole society
  • Find the power to kindle radical Outrageous Love in your life for your loved ones and beyond
  • Reimagine your life and all of the reality to create the world that works for everyone
  • Find joy, vitality, and success in every area of your life

>>> Learn More about Reclaiming Eros Here <<<


This course is the ideal companion to our wonderful think tank book A Return to Eros:

>>> Buy A Return to Eros Here <<<

Buy A Return to Eros on amazon

What would our world look likeby Dr. Marc Gafni

What would our world look like if we looked at our leaders as the potential Outrageous Lovers that they already are, instead of looking at them through the lens of suspicion and mistrust?

That does not mean that we abandon healthy skepticism, fact checking, or any of that. It does mean a shift in perception, in which we look for the highest in a person and through the potency of that perception, we call people to actually be their most noble self. For in truth that is the deepest yearning of every human being.

I shared this thought in a several talks at Evolutionary Church and in other forums and in a series of tweets over the last couple of weeks.

Here are the tweets as well as links to the last evolutionary churches. We would love to see you there.

We live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response is #OutrageousLove. @realDonaldTrump is an Outrageous Lover.

We live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response is #OutrageousLove. @HillaryClinton is an Outrageous Lover.

We live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response is #OutrageousLove. @BarackObama is an Outrageous Lover.

We live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response is #OutrageousLove. @SarahPalinUSA is an Outrageous Lover.

We live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response is #OutrageousLove. @MichelleObama is an Outrageous Lover.

The only response to outrageous pain is #OutrageousLove. All of our hatred is unfulfilled Outrageous Love.

Evolutionary Church Replay

December 10>>>

Register for Evolutionary Church Here>>>